Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following, we break those rules, and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more satisfied in the second half of our lives.
I hope all of you are doing okay. I know a lot of us are having a lot of feelings about the outcome of the presidential and senate and house and many local elections. And I for one have been taking some time to be with myself and check in on the people I love and give my kids a lot of love and affection. This week, I have been laying low and writing and working out and generally trying not to get caught up in the spin of what does this mean? And what will things be like?
Because no one has a crystal ball and no one can predict the future. I'm trying to feel my feelings, which are really feelings of anger and disappointment and frustration, but I'm also trying to stay where my feet are. And take care of the people I love this too shall pass one of my most comforting and trite things that I say to myself when the world is not conforming to my ideals.
And I know this is not a political podcast, but this is a podcast about living our best lives over 40. It's hard for me not to see this election as a referendum on what the country thinks about women. Especially women in midlife and what our rightful place is in the world. It's hard not to see Kamala Harris and half of the country's rejection of her as a repudiation of powerful, accomplished, professional women at the top of their game.
It's hard not to look at the extraordinary race she ran and how she rose to the moment and not see the best of all of us. It's hard not to look at her and relate to someone who has really done everything by the book and done it extraordinarily well.
It's hard not to think she's been done wrong. That we've been done wrong. You may feel differently than I do about the outcome of this election. You know, we're all different people and we come from different points of view, but since this is my podcast and you tune in from my point of view, I just want to say that it's hard not to think what the fucking fuck when I see what this country has chosen for itself.
It's hard not to feel like we've been taken down a notch by the quote unquote manosphere. And the forces of fear and anger and negativity and misogyny that have taken root and been nakedly revealed this week in this deeply divided country, but I am fundamentally an optimist, especially about women in midlife.
And when I put politics to the side and I take a deep breath, the fact that we are here having these conversations week after week together on this podcast, the fact that I can bring you the insights of extraordinary, thoughtful, compassionate, accomplished, interesting women with amazing and empowering messages to share.
That are going to help us sort through the complexities that are facing us as we work to reclaim ourselves and reinvent our lives in the places where they need to be reinvented or refreshed in the second half. Well, I hope these conversations make you feel hopeful about us and who we are in the world.
And what we know we are capable of. I hope they make you feel hopeful about your future and your family's futures. And what is possible for us in the face of all of the negative forces out there. We are here together. We will be strong together. We will evolve together. We will navigate change, personal change, cultural, political, professional, all the change together.
That's what we're here to do. And my guests today are experts on change, which is so very serendipitous. I would like to pause for applause on that segue. I would like some praise for my tone shift because it really is an incredible conversation that I have today with Dr. Keri Ulrich and Kelly Geunther.
Keri and Kelly are co-founders of the leadership and HR consultancy, the Abracci group. Together they co-host a podcast called "The Breakout" podcast, where they talk to change experts and boundary breakers about how to navigate changes big and small. And they've written a new book that's called, this is an amazing title, "Whatever the Hell You Want."
I really love that title because now more than ever, what I want. It's whatever the hell I want, I don't want to have to justify it to anyone. I want what I want and you are free to want what you want, too.
In their book, they guide readers through identifying the boxes that keep them trapped, creating a plan for breaking out, and living a life of choice and freedom. Keri and Kelly are also best friends, who have figured out a way to spend a lot of time together, which sounds like a dream that a lot of us might share. All right, let's get hot.
Keri and Kelly, welcome to Hotter Than Ever.
Keri: Thank you, Erin. It's so wonderful to be here.
Erin: I am thrilled to have you, and I am so excited to talk about careers and the workplace and understand exactly what change management means. But first, I would love to hear your personal stories and how you came to start a company together after long careers, presumably doing your own individual things.
Kelly: Yeah. So I'll go ahead and start. I born and raised in Wisconsin, so if you notice the nasally accent, that's why I went to college, got a degree in English, and then I started working at a healthcare clinic. And I found that every single time there was someone that was new that joined the organization, they would often have that person work with me because I would train them on the role. And I really found that I loved. I mean, I loved what I was doing, but I also loved being able to train people, especially people who found that they were nervous, they were scared, they thought, oh, I can't do this. And then you could see the evolution and then flower and grow. And so I thought, well, there might be something in this training thing.
So I went back to school and got my master's in 2009, and then I went to work at a small tech firm, a startup that was acquired and living quarter to quarter, not really knowing if my role in training, which is complete overhead, was really going to make the next cut. I got nervous. And fortunately, Keri was working with a former colleague that I worked with at the tech company who said, hey, Kelly, are you interested in the sales training position that we've got available? If so, apply. And so I did. And that's really. My career took off like a rocket ship. You know, I was a bit of a skittish cat, terrified of everything and everybody. And Keri gave me some amazing coaching, which she still is a great coach to me today.
We did a lot of really great work, and we moved away from that company. And I say we because I would follow Keri kind of everywhere she went. So in 2016, I was offered an opportunity from a previous leader that I used to work with to move to Orange County, California, and work as a change manager for a company that was going through a complete overhaul. And so I jumped at the chance I'd always wanted to live. If I was going to live anywhere, I wanted to live in California. So I moved. Yeah, yeah, it truly is Southern California. There's no place like it.
So I moved there in 2016, and the job was okay, but you could start to see the writing on the wall. Leadership wasn't as solid as what I had hoped. And in hr, you tend to see things a lot faster maybe than other employees.
Erin: And so I realized you're probably behind the curtain. Yeah.
Keri: Yep.
Kelly: Yeah. Or as someone once said at that company, I'll show you underneath the kimono. Which I have never really appreciated that expression.
Erin: But yes, my, my ex husband used to work in banking and he had a boss who, who would say, let's open the kimono. And I'm like, ew, don't open your kimono and don't say kimono. Like, right, I'm calling a jar. I'm calling.
Keri: No one wants to see it. No one wants to see it. I know there's a lot of people, mainly men, who think we want to see it, especially at work, but we don't. No, we really don't.
Erin: No kimono closed. If you're wearing a kimono, that's your business.
Keri: Right. Again, don't come to work and open it. It's good. It's fine. Please don't.
Kelly: Ironically, then, Keri, about three months before I moved out in 2016, she had moved out to Southern California for a separate opportunity. And about a year into that, we looked at each other and we said, you know, this isn't quite what we signed up for our respective jobs. And people had kind of always joked like, you should do your own, you should have your own HR consulting firm. And so we said to each other, look, we're in Southern California. Like, there's so much opportunity in comparison to where we were in Wisconsin that it just made sense. So we always knew we could, if it didn't work out, we could go and back to corporate jobs, you know, and live our best life. But we took the chance on ourselves. I'm so glad we did.
We're seven years in business and then we started a podcast in 2021 and that has morphed into the breakout and now we've written a book together. And it's just there's no greater pleasure in life than being able to do something. I work so hard with. Someone that you truly feel is like a sister to you. So I'm so grateful for this journey that we're on. And yeah, it's been a great ride.
Erin: I'm so jealous, I gotta say, like, being this sort of one person band or whatever, I used to find a lot of virtue in my independence and now I'm like, oh my God, I want partners for everything.
Keri: Yeah. I will say that I, first of all, never thought I'd have my own business. Never thought I would write a book. Now it's number two, the second book, which I joked yesterday that I still can't believe it. But Kelly and I get a lot of questions on how do I start my business? How does it look? How do you survive all those kind of great things? And I do think, Erin, the fact that we've had each other, I'm not sure that a. I would have started it without a partner and without Kelly, and then I don't think I would have survived without a partner. And it's not necessarily because we didn't have the skills for it. It is the mental anguish, the wherewithal that you go through.
Yeah, yeah. It's just having someone in it with you when you're low and you're like, oh my God, this isn't going to work. What did we do? She's a cheerleader. And when Kelly's low, I can be the cheerleader. And it is just so wondrous that we have each other in this that I just don't, I don't think we would have survived without it, actually. I just don't think we would have started. I wouldn't have started without a partner, so I don't think Kelly would have either.
Erin: Yeah, one thing I notice about doing my own thing is like, I can hire whoever to do whatever, but they don't care the way I care.
Keri: Right.
Erin: And they're not going to come to me because they're not full time employees looking to get raises and promotions. They're not going to come to me and say I had this great idea and I'm going to execute against that idea. It's. For me, it's like, I'll hear some ideas, but it's like, okay, and then what? Or it's me having a million ideas and me having to push and drive and, and me being the motor all the time. And that's, that's very hard on your own. And I think we have this myth of independence and entrepreneurship and this sort of like intrepid frontier spirit or whatever it is in America. And I don't think that's the female way. Not to gender stereotype, but I do think women, you know, when I think about power and agency, I think about women doing power with and not power over and us sort of leaning into our communities, our networks, each other to grow and advance.
Keri: Yeah. And we're so, I mean, as Kelly and I talk about so much in the new book is around how you break out of these expectations. And one of the expectations is very much communal and community for women. And sometimes that really works well and it's amazing. Like Kelly and I in our corporation and doing all this great work and then sometimes we've been very much pitted against each other. And because of that and because we're supposed to have community, we can't rise up because the community wants to pull you down. And I've been in those situations where I'll say, oh, I'm going to go do this. And you can feel the community sometimes say, why are you.
No, no, stay here, pull back. And so there's a, there's a double edged sword to that community sometimes as well.
Erin: Keri, talk to me about that because I hear this. It's just not been my life experience that I'm in competition with other women. Like, I don't feel that. And I. And maybe, maybe I'm just not seeing it or maybe I'm not playing a certain game that other people are playing, but I just always feel like, oh, women are allies. Like women are here to support each other. And like I've never felt like, oh, I'm competing with someone for male attention. I'm competing with someone with another woman for, you know, visibility in a company.
Erin: But maybe it's just because I'm not wired like that. I don't see it, but I hear it from people.
Keri: Yeah. I think, first of all, let me take the evolution. We're so much better now. Let's be like the fact that we have a podcast where we can support each other and you're supporting women, Erin. I mean, it is an open venue for us to do that. Yeah. I think when you're a community and there's, there's something in Australia that I learned about so long ago called the tall Poppy syndrome.
Erin: Yes. And I've heard from an Australian recently.
Keri: Say, talk about this and, and so what's so interesting, because many cultures have their community based versus in individual based, which is very much America, just like you said, Erin.
Erin: Oh, yeah.
Keri: We are individuals. We are. We pull ourselves up by the bootstraps. We have a whole story around it. And you're an individual. A lot of cultures, your community. But what the dark side of that, the flip side of it, because then you think, oh, this is so beautiful. We're a community and everyone helps each other.
But the tall poppy in Australia gets cut down first. I think Japan has a similar metaphor about that. But in, in Australia, if you're the tallest poppy, you get chopped first. So that message means to the rest of the community, don't stand out too much. Don't be. Don't tell about all your accolades or I'm going on a podcast. I wrote a book. Like, no, no, no.
Because that person gets cut down first. And so especially as women, if we're raised more communal versus men who are raised more individualistic, then all of a sudden, when I, like, I remember this, when I was. I was younger, I was going to. I had a trip because I had a boyfriend in Paris. This sounds very fancy. It was not, but it sounds very fancy.
Erin: It does.
Keri: Doesn't it? And so he was in Paris, and I was flying out there for the weekend. And I remember the group of women I was talking to because I worked at the university, and they all looked at me, went, oh, that must be nice. And it was that. And I just. That's always sits with me. I said, oh, there it is.
And they were all super pleasant, and they were all. But that. Oh, that must be nice. You're going over to Paris at your age. And I'm like, what you didn't know is I was in an abusive relationship and this person wasn't. And this was like an amazing opportunity for me to do something. But you didn't know all that. You just heard, oh, I can't believe this young thing is going to Paris. And I haven't been to Paris before.
Erin: Right.
Keri: And so it's that kind of subtle stuff around that tall poppy that I think as women, we don't even realize we're doing sometimes. Like, oh, that must be nice. Good for you.
Erin: Oh, it's like the Southern, like, bless his heart.
Keri: Oh, bless your heart. Oh, but I think we don't, like, we just don't even realize it. So you have that, and then you also have it, depending on what industry you're in. There was only room for one meaning one black man, one female, one female person of color, and that was it. So in a way, the system also kind of pitted you against each other because it was like, well, there's only one job for the chick, and it's either Keri, Kelly or Erin. So go at it. Figure it out. We don't have it as much anymore, thank goodness. But I think some of that. The system also encouraged some of that competition.
Erin: Do we not have it as much anymore? Because I think we do. Like, I mean, just having worked in tech, entertainment and tech, like, yes. You know, one of the observations that I've been making on this podcast is that, like, we are the most successful generation of women who've ever lived on planet Earth. We really are. We are extraordinary. We're the most educated, we're the most accomplished, we're the most high ranking. They let us run everything. Like, they let us run stuff, but they don't let us control stuff and they don't let us own stuff and they don't let us on the board, and we don't control the budgets at the end of the day.
And so, like, oops, sorry. I had someone write in a review of this podcast, stop talking about the patriarchy, which I'm so happy about. I was like, oh, controversy. But the fact is that, like, that is what that is. And so as much as we have risen in this generation and that there is room for more women, women in leadership and women in ownership positions are much fewer and further between than we probably would like to acknowledge before.
Keri: I know Kelly has a lot to say, but I just have to say we wouldn't talk about the patriarchy if it didn't exist and oppress us. But that's just two cents right there. Sorry, Erin. I just had to say it. I'm like, you don't have to be sorry.
Erin: Be sorry to my one listener who's probably not.
Keri: I'm like, I'm sorry, listener. But we would have to. I would love not to talk about it. Wouldn't that be great? I would love not to talk about.
Erin: We wouldn't have to talk about it.
Keri: Exactly. So sorry, Kelly, I can see on your face you need to say something.
Kelly: Well, it's just. It's the idea, I think, too, as women, we sometimes don't give ourselves permission to be able to embark on things because we feel like we need to have 100% of everything figured out before we even apply. Whereas. And there's a stat about this that. And I was just talking with an employee about this not too long ago, that men will look at a job description and they'll see 60%. I've got 60% of what the job is looking for. I'm in. Sell gold.
I'm gonna. I'm gonna apply and probably get the job, and I'll ask for like 20,000 more than the offer and a 50% raise. Like, that's where they. And I wish sometimes that women. It's not to say all women don't. Don't see their value, but a lot of them feel as though they have to get permission or they have to have everything figured out and be presented. And in some ways, that is the expectation anyway, you know, that if she's a powerful woman, who has a path and she knows what she's doing. She's labeled sometimes a bitch, which is horrifying because you never call that to a man who is in control and leads a business and makes decisions, and we're just called too emotional. So, yeah, there's a lot wrapped up in that, for sure.
Erin: Yeah. It's so interesting to me, and I think what happens in midlife is that our experience comes to match our expectations and hopes professionally. So we actually now consider ourselves qualified. Just at the moment when our lives are changing so much and the marketplace is changing so much and ageism starts to creep in and sexism still exists, and we're finally like, wait, no, I did all the things. I had a conversation with a friend the other day whose career has been very parallel to mine, was parallel to mine in television for many, many years. We were development executives coming up in the comedy world. And she said to me, for 20 years, I did everything right. I did all the things you're supposed to do to get to a place in your career where you're an SVP or you're an EVP and you're making meaningful decisions, and you have all the agency that you've been craving, that you've been working towards, that you've been doing it brick by brick just the right way.
And now in those businesses, in entertainment and in tech, like, the bottom falls out from under you, especially in entertainment. And we're all going, oh, my God, what are we supposed to do now? We did the things we were supposed to do, and it's this sense of injustice, it's the sense of unfairness. And also it's kind of the sense of, like, suck it up, buttercup. Like, you've got to figure it out yourself now. And so that is why I want to understand the notion of change. We all experience it. I think we're experiencing it to such an incredible degree these days where we are all rolling in midlife with changes to the workplace, changes to our desires in the workplace, our career and professional aspirations, changes to our personal lives. There's a lot of divorce in midlife, Changes to our situation with our kids, if we have kids and they're getting older and they're moving out, our bodies are changing, our values are changing as our estrogen drops and we decide we no longer need to accommodate the group, we no longer need the protection of the tribe in order to protect our offspring.
You know, coming down to an animalistic level, we are in constant change in midlife. And it is so uncomfortable at A moment when we want to be comfortable.
Kelly: Comfortable.
Keri: You need those comfortable pants because you hit midlife, you gain that weight, stupid estrogen drop, but you need to be comfortable with good pants. But I think, Erin, when you talk about that, that I did everything right brick by brick. And what I hear quite often is I did it because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. And that's what's so hard then when it falls apart because you thought maybe you were doing it for yourself, but in actuality you just thought, well, I need to get straight A's to get this. And then I need to go to this school to get this.
And then I need to have this nice job and I need to do it this way. And then it falls out. And you're like, well, who am I? Because I've been basing it on other people's expectations and externals and whoa, now I don't know what to do because my entire identity was wrapped up in either being a mom, not being a mom, having this job, working at this company, working in this industry. And that falls apart. And then you really have to look at your core, which for many of us is really hard to look at. Like, what motivates me. And then when you look at that, you have to think about, okay, what's really important, because this notion that we can have it all. You cannot have leisure time and a ton of money.
Sorry, for the most part, I mean, you cannot be a parent who's there all the time and a giant career and a ton of money and leisure time. Like, you got to figure out, I can't have a rock hard body and eat some chocolate cake. And like, so you got to figure out what's really important to you. And that's extremely hard work if you have been ignoring that for most of your life.
Erin: Well, and also if you've been trapped in a overwhelm of labor, which I think a lot of us are, which is like, you know, everything from the labor in the workplace. I had an extraordinary team of incredibly hard working women in my last job. We were all basically masochists. Like, because we were working so crazily for the brass ring and because it was as it was tantalizingly close. It was. It had never been closer for any of us. We were like, this is it. This is the big.
This is the big shot that we've got. You know, we were at a company that IPO'd. We had all the, you know, all the things, and some of us did really well. But the cost of it for all of us, burnout. Because we all were having kids, we all were also trying to have it all. We had partners with crazy jobs, we were managing our domestic lives, which don't get me started on domestic labor, but I was crying every weekend, you know, I was so overwhelmed. And I had it all. I had everything.
It looked amazing from the outside and inside. I also didn't have a good marriage. I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you do it. And like, the fact that it all burnt to the ground and that I was enthusiastic about that at a certain point, you know, But I had to get sick in order to make a change and see the truth and stop lying to myself and, and get real about what I want. And I'm still in a place where I'm like, okay, now, okay, like I. The dust is settled on a lot of pieces of the puzzle. But now my industry, which is like, I make things, I make media.
So I'm making a podcast and I'm writing a book and I'm doing all the things. I've got some TV stuff, but that doesn't exist in the way it used to. So I don't know how to pivot. I don't know how to manage all this change and make money. And I think a lot of us are in this place where we're like, ready to do something different and the economy is changing so rapidly and we're like, okay, we'll consult, I'll start my own thing. But, like, are we all equipped for that? What is the first step on the path to figuring out that piece of the puzzle?
Kelly: You set it up really nicely, you know, and we have a model called the Break model of change. And the first step is being brave enough to have the conversation with yourself about what is not working, what doesn't fuel me, what is leaving me feeling unfulfilled. And sometimes, unfortunately, you have to have a rock bottom or you have to lose everything or something happens that's so profound and so deep that that is the impetus for change within you. And it's amazing to me how many people, women, men, non binary, who find it within themselves to find a way out, who are able to figure out what is that first next step. And, you know, self awareness. We promote heavily within the book, our show in life, I preach about self awareness all the time because when you truly know yourself and the idiosyncrasies of what makes you tick, you can be a better informed person about who you Surround yourself with and who you don't surround yourself with. And so being brave, being bold enough to say, this is what I want for myself. This is not what I want for myself. Sometimes it's easier to say what you don't want.
Erin: Yes.
Kelly: Because that gets you closer to what you do want. Yes.
Erin: I call it the I don't want to. Like, I. Yeah, when I hear the ad happening, I go, okay, like, I know this phase. I know this phase. Everything is resistance, everything is negative. Everything is like a little baby temper tantrum. And I don't want to do this, and I don't want to do that.
Erin: Not okay, so, all right, so if I don't want to do those things, like what's left?
Kelly: Right.
Erin: What am I willing to do?
Kelly: We all have those things. I mean, we all have those things, sadly. But I mean, that's what makes us stronger too, you know, that's what makes us. Again, when we are so uncomfortable, that's when you're most likely to change because you want to get out of that state somehow. There's something that's not comfortable, not right. And it's truly at that moment where you learn who you really are.
Erin: In the 12 step world, they say that we grow at the speed of pain. That one just rings real true for me.
Keri: It's totally true. I think Kelly and I, when we talk to people, some of our favorite folks are folks who have been through the 12 step program because they have hit the rock bottom, many of them, and said, this is not working. And so many of us that has to happen. We have health issues like you said, Erin have a divorce. Someone looks at you and says, I don't even know who you are anym anymore. Like, who is this person?
Erin: Right.
Keri: And you have these moments of, oh, crap, this is not who I am. This is not who I want to be. And I got to do something about it.
Erin: Yeah.
Keri: And so like Kelly said that, that brave part of just admitting it, I. Kelly and I think it's the hardest one. It's the hardest one because think about our society and our family and friends quite often want us to kind of keep doing what we do. And we might not have a good support system to even say it's not working. Well, they want you to keep working, Erin. I mean, a company wants you to keep working. They don't want you to have really kind of a crisis of conscious and just say, oh, I don't know if I want to work this hard. They want you to keep working.
Keri: Right.
Erin: Even if they love you and they want the best for you, their own fear might be indicating what you should do according to them. I know that my choices recently have been really scary to my family. Like, people who care about me, you know, and they're like, I don't know, Erin. And I'm like, I don't have a choice. Like, I have to change. I have to grow because I want to be happy. And I accepted unhappiness as the cost of having it all for so long. And I just.
Life is short. You get one go round. This is it. This is it. And it's so cheesy to say there's. This isn't a dress rehearsal or whatever, but, like, it is not a dress rehearsal.
Keri: It's not.
Erin: This is the game where the show is happening. We are the show. And so being willing to make people in your. To whatever people think, you know, like, you have to do for you.
Keri: Yeah.
Erin: And nobody else knows what your conscience is saying or what your heart is saying or what your passion is telling you.
Keri: No.
Erin: You know, and, like, be willing to seem crazy to people. Like, you have to.
Keri: I think you have to. And I think you said something, Erin, about I was accepting being unhappy. And that's what we see so much, especially women. We kind of accept, well, that's the way it is. It'll be unhappy. I mean, think about. You're in tv. Think about all the TV shows where it's the woman like, okay, he's a dumbass husband, but I accept it.
Every sitcom, every sitcom. And then we all, quite a few comedians talk about, well, you know, the wife. Well, you know, the husband. And it is just the society kind of telling us it's just accept it that you should be unhappy. Just kind of accept it. It's okay. Just be in your little sleepy state. Be unhappy.
And that's what's so amazing about being brave and saying, no, I don't. I don't want to sleepwalk. It's not a dress rehearsal. I want to live this life to its fullest. And so what does that mean? And it means upsetting quite a few people often, because many people want you to stay where you're at.
Erin: Yeah. It's more comfortable for them. I will say that. I wish. And maybe this is a public service announcement, you know, to two best friends who work together and have their own. Their own business. Maybe you can back me up on this. If you see your closest friends living a life that seems like a massive compromise and misery, and you see that they are unhappy don't not say anything.
Keri: Yeah.
Erin: I think like, I'm intense. So I feel like people don't, like, they're worried that I'll get upset. I'm not like angry, but like, I'm emphatic. And people don't, like, especially men, they don't, they don't understand that there is like, are you mad at me? I'm like, no, I'm having intense feelings that don't have anything to do with you. Actually. I wish my closest girlfriends had said to me, hey, baby, are you okay? You okay? Like, can I say something to you? Like, you don't seem okay.
Kelly: That, and when there is someone who does want to make a change for themselves, unless it's an act of violence, self harm, an illegal or unethical type of thing, just support them. You know, be someone who is going to come is going to be their biggest cheerleader and advocate rather than give them a litany and a re and a list a mile long of all the things that could go wrong, terrible, ruin your life, ruin someone else. Because I guarantee you they've already thought about that crap. They have already thought it. For them to be able to articulate it. They've thought about it before. They've made a decision that is changing their life, changing their career, family structure, whatever.
Just listen and be an advocate and don't necessarily come in with all of the things that could go wrong or solutions or solution. Because sometimes we just want to be able to talk it out with no expectation of any immediate feedback or feedback that could in some way make us question ourselves all over again.
Erin: Yeah. I think that's so wise. I think that's so wise. Also. You can ask people like, hey, I have some. I see that you're. You need something from me. Like, do you want advice? Do you want to just hear? Do you just want support? Like, do you want to vent comforted? You want to vent? Like, I think we forget that we can ask.
Keri: Yeah.
Erin: I think we go to solution, we go to task.
Keri: Yep.
Erin: Because so much of our lives is problem solving.
Keri: Yeah.
Erin: You know, but sometimes it's just like, hey, I'm like, not doing so great.
Keri: Yeah.
Erin: And I don't need solution. I'll find the solution. We're all high achievers. Like, we'll figure it out. But what I need is your compassion, your tenderness, your, your. I see you. Like, just to be seen where you are is such a big deal.
Keri: I think too. I, that's all beautiful. I would just add that. Be prepared when you're going to tell someone something that you may think because they might not be as aware as you see it. I know Kelly's done this with a friend. I have done this about, do you really want to marry that person? Like, here's what we've seen. Do you know what I mean? Like, you are a different person. You also have to be prepared that that person may not accept it, may not want to be your friend after, and may change the relationship a bit.
And so I think to go in kind of eyes wide open as well, of knowing that, why am I telling this person this? Is it because I have an issue and I just don't like that person. Like, they're married, or am I very concerned about my friends? So there's some analysis you have to do of why you're saying it, and then also be prepared that it might change the relationship and you might not have one. And Kelly and I have really great stories about how we, especially with each other, like, hey, are you okay? Like, what's going on? And we accept that. And then we also have the flip where people just didn't listen because they're on their journey, and eventually they do or just not friends with us anymore.
Erin: So, yeah, I've had friends choose not to say things in favor of keeping the friendship.
Keri: Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: Fair. Fair choice. But I do wish some people had said to me, like, hey, you're. Are you all right?
Kelly: Yeah.
Erin: That was definitely not all right for a while.
Keri: Right. And I think, like you said, people, if they can show you they care and it's coming from a caring place. And I remember I told. I said something to someone and he even looked at me, he goes, well, you could be right. You probably are, but I'm choosing to ignore it. I said, okay. And it was about a tax relationship, but it was very honest. And I'm still friends with him, but he was like, I think I'm just going to keep continuing down this path.
Erin: I probably would have said the same thing.
Keri: Yeah.
Erin: Like, in terms of my marriage, which was so apparent to everyone how unhappy it was. Right. But I. I was like, I have twins. I have little, little kids. If I could figure my way out of this and figure out how to be a single parent to twins, with the career that I have, I absolutely would do it, but I think I can't do that. So I'm going to eat shit until I can figure it out, and I'm going to put it aside and say, I'm working on the relationship. I'm I'm hoping things will get better because I did. But in my heart of hearts, I knew it was never going to get better.
Keri: Yeah. And I think that honesty, though, Erin, there's something about. With the immediate gratification that we have and we want everything to be fixed so quickly. And in a video, like, I started off Sad, and then two minutes later on TikTok, I was happy again because I did something I think sometimes you might have to say, you know, what it is, what it is. Right now, I don't have the best marriage. I'm doing it for this reason. I'm gonna. But here's my plan.
Even knowing that there's an end date to it, even though you can get through it, but it's about being honest with yourself instead of just scared to.
Erin: Even acknowledge that it was eventually going to end. Like, I was too scared to really call it what it was, which was like, this is a not. This is a failing marriage.
Keri: Right.
Erin: Because for a thousand reasons, we get so invested in the commitment that we've made. The sort of. What is it? The lost opportunity. The opportunity cost.
Keri: Opportunity cost.
Erin: Yeah. Like, oh, I've sunk so much into this. If I bail now, I think people feel like that about working somewhere, too. It's, oh, I've been here for X number of years and I put so much in. But if I go, then I won't be able to extract the value that I was hoping for in the long term. And when we talked in advance of this call, you said, change is sometimes slow, and I hate that.
Keri: Right. Don't we all want to lose 30 pounds in the next day?
Erin: Yes.
Keri: Like, what? Well, hello. That's why I was epic. And give me a shot. Look at me, dude. I'm on it. Great.
Erin: And I'm going slow, but I'm going slow. You can't control how slowly or quickly you lose weight on it. It just decides for you. And thankfully, it's been slow because then I feel like I have a shot of keeping it off.
Keri: Right.
Erin: You know, but, yeah. Did I want it to all be gone in five minutes? Every time. Every time I've lost weight, I. Yeah, I think.
Keri: Kelly. I know, Kelly, we've. We've heard so many people say this, too. Which is detrimental to your mental health is. Well, it's the devil, you know, so it's another reason you won't change. Right.
Erin: Devil.
Keri: And it's the. Right. And you even say it. It's the devil, you know, so they won't leave the job or they won't. And that's one of the things that I admire so much about Kelly. So where I like, change, I'm like, let's do it, let's mix it up.
Erin: Yeah.
Keri: Kelly doesn't actually, which is just again, we're so opposite and yet Kelly has moved. Kelly has made choices about her personal life. Kelly has broken these expectations and she would be the first one to be like, well, I don't know if I should do it. And she does it every single time. It's amazing.
Erin: Why Kelly?
Kelly: I think I know myself pretty well, so I know what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And it's usually a knee jerk reaction to say I can't or it won't work or. So I think some of it's part of that. But it's surprising how much sometimes I lose confidence. Despite what Keri has mentioned, I've moved across the country. I've done a lot of things that most people wouldn't consider doing. I've made a decision when I was very young to not have kids, which was very much going against the grain. But I knew myself well enough to know that that wasn't a motivator for me.
Like, that wasn't going to make me excited. I probably wasn't going to be the best mother if I did it just because that's the way I was supposed to do things. And I kind of just like showing people and proving people wrong too. Like, there's something about saying, you think that's what my life has to look like? It doesn't have to look like that. And yes, we can be successful. So, you know, so a little defined judgment.
Erin: Yeah, a little defiance is good. Yeah.
Kelly: Yeah. I mean, when I was a sophomore in high school, I classically. Everyone who knows me well knows that I, I struggle with math to this day. If I show I looked at a math equation, I would probably cry just because it brings up that much PTSD for me. And during a parent teacher conference, the teacher told my parents, you know, some kids aren't meant to go to college. And that was like, it was such a demoralizing feeling. But that was the fire that lit within me of saying, you know what? Screw you, I'm going to go to college that much harder. I'm going to go get another degree just to really show you.
And you can't tell me what I can and cannot be because I have to believe it, number one. So I could have gone down a path of believing it and choosing a Life that really wasn't one that I wanted just because I listened to what some joker math teacher had to say about me. One small part of my life that has absolutely nothing to do with what I do today could have completely derailed my whole life. And for the people out there who are in similar situations where someone told them something horrifying or hurtful, that's why I went into learning and development, because I never wanted anyone to feel that same way, you know? So, yeah, it's like, you can. People can say such horrible things, and if you believe it, it can totally change the trajectory of your life. But if you don't and you want something better, that you can change your life.
Keri: So she gets me every time, Erin, with that story. Like, every time I get tears in my eyes. But I think that's. That's also why that defiance streak. I've had it just in general. Kelly is very focused with it. And so I think that's why when we started our book, it's f. The expectations.
It's not a soft, like, well, think about them first, and maybe they. It is a strong effort. And now we'll unpack it. Oh, I can't. Good. I just was making sure it was. It was fuck the expectations. So I think we were both so excited about that first sentence because sometimes you need that fire.
And, like, did you just tell me that I have to have children? Fuck that. Did you just tell me that I have to be married? That I have to do that? Fuck that again? So I think that is such a good fire for people. And maybe one of the first steps, sometimes it change is thinking which one? Do you really just want to go tell the F off? You know what I mean? Like, that one doesn't fit me, and I'm so sick of it. And it does propel you sometimes. So a good little. So hard being pissed off.
Erin: It's so hard because we're so socialized to be good and to be pleasers. And, like, I have a total rebel spirit, but I followed every fucking rule. Yeah, I followed every fucking rule, and I did everything exactly right, you know, And I married someone who needed that. Me to be that. So increasingly, I took on more and more and more and got really rigid and really unpleasant to be around because I was like, okay, well, if I'm the person who's holding it all down and I'm doing everything right, I'm doing everything right at home. I'm doing everything right at work. And, like, I was so full of resentment.
Keri: Yes.
Erin: And anger. But because I was a good girl. I didn't have a place to put that. And getting comfortable with saying what's so. And having boundaries and not being a dick about it. But, like, my son literally said to me, just because you have a boundary doesn't mean you're an. He literally said that to me yesterday because I was apologizing for setting a boundary with his dad. And I was like, oh, my God, he's 13. I'm like, where is this wise child from?
Keri: Love that.
Erin: But I still really struggle, like, you know, especially around relationships with men. But also, I think that extrapolates into the world is men. Like, it extrapolates into the rest of your life. If you can't actually have your own back before you have someone else's back. If you can't actually look out for what you need more than making nice, which is what I was trained to do, like, make nice to survive. Stay out of the line of fire by being good. We all, a lot of us, are learning this late in life that we actually can do this, that we actually. It's actually better for us to make people mad or disappoint people or whatever, rather than throwing ourselves under the bus.
And in the workplace, that's really, really hard, I think, especially because there's all these concrete sets of expectations, and they call them OKRs, and they call them whatever the fuck. But, like, you know, really, it's like, you know, how will you please your master?
Keri: It really is. It really is the same thing. And I think, especially as women, that whole. We're so taught to be a good girl and be so pleasant and don't break any rules and be sweet. And even if you try, you get a little shot down by people you work with or the company or society for doing that. Like, how dare you? How dare you kind of step out again? We go back to that Tall Poppy syndrome. Why did you step out? Why are you saying anything? And it's a little disconcerting for people to do that.
Erin: You don't know what conversations are happening behind closed doors, too. And as HR people, you are aware of what those conversations are. I'd love to hear that. Hear a little bit about that, because I know that those conversations happen especially around maternity leave, you know, like taking care of aging parents, like, all kinds of things where women are called to do, take care of other responsibilities in their lives in addition to their work life.
Keri: I think it's quite amazing where people will say, oh, yeah, no, I'm progressive. I'm progressive. I want to have equal work and equal pay and all that. But then sometimes behind closed doors, and this is a while ago, I worked in a lot of male dominated fields and I sit with succession planning. So that means the door is closed and we're talking about who's the next CEO and who's the next CMO and chro, all these C suite people and directors and vice presidents and we'll talk about each person. And I remember that all these women would come up and again, it was a male dominated industry. So let me.
It's not all these women. It was probably like 10 or something and they just had a baby or they were going to have a baby and they would go, oh, I wonder if she's going to come back. And it was just this. And if you ask them before the door closed, are you all for equal rights? I guarantee they would say, oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, women, they can do it. But then the door closes and like, I wonder if they're going to come back to work. So then this guy was being discussed and he just had twins, Erin, like you, he just had twins. And I couldn't help it and I was young and I didn't care and I just said, do you think he's going to come back? The whole room just stopped. They looked at me and just went, yeah.
And then kept talking. They did. I don't even think they even got what I was trying to. And I was so angry. I just thought, okay, I can't start like screaming at them right now. But, but it was that moment of they don't even realize that that conversation that plays within them all the time. And so they don't even realize then when the woman comes back to the, to the workforce after having a baby, they'll say something like this, oh, shouldn't you go home and be with your family now? Go home and be with your family now. They didn't say it to the guy who just had the baby.
And so we just constantly get these messages. And like I said, behind closed doors there used to be they, they only hired or the only women who went to the top didn't have kids. They're always single. Whereas the men had to have kids to move to the top. Right? Politicians. Yeah, yeah. That was like, what is the latest politician who like had the fake family? It was like amazing in the commercial because he had to though, like talk about expectations, like if men don't have a family, something's very strange with them. So that's like an expectation that I feel bad for men, because why can't you be single? Right.
Erin: Yeah.
Keri: The flip used to be women. If you made it to the top, I often saw you didn't have any kids, and they didn't want them to have kids because they would be too distracted with their children. And so a lot of this stuff happens behind closed doors, and that's where the power is. Erin, like you said, we might have things as women, but we don't run the company. We don't have the power. We don't get the venture capital funding.
Erin: No, we do not.
Keri: So we still are at arm's length. And a lot of those conversations happen behind closed doors because it's who they trust, it's who they know. So when they see Jim. Yeah. They're like, oh, Jim would probably do really well at that. Chief Marketing Officer. I don't know about Erin. I don't. I don't know. I'm not sure.
Erin: I have a great show business example of that, which is there was a filmmaker named Colin Trevorrow, and he made a wonderful little movie called Safety Not Guaranteed. It was an indie film, actually was produced by a company that I worked for. And Steven Spielberg saw it and was like, that's a terrific film. He took Colin Trevorrow under his wing, and the next job that Colin Trevorrow got was Jurassic World. And because Steven Spielberg said, I saw myself in him, I saw my young self in him, and I knew he could do it. And when women have the power, we will be able to do that as well. We will be able to say, I see this young woman. I see her hustle, I see her fire.
I try to do that with interns that I've had. One of the first people I called when I started the podcast was an intern that I had at Snapchat who I thought was a genius. And I was like, can you please come and be my associate producer on the podcast? Because you are a future superstar, and I want to be part of that story. And, you know, that is what we can do for each other when we have that level of impact and agency in our own lives. We can bring other women up, but, you know, no CEO is going to see a young woman and go, that's just what I was like when I was young.
Keri: Exactly, Exactly. And that's what you see. And you get to this. It's trust. And so there's some studies that look at. That is the problem is because I immediately trust you because you are like me, and then I give you a promotion faster. So we could all start at the same level. We could all have about the same performance.
But then behind closed doors again, I'm like, I don't know. I mean, there's something about Kelly. Well, because she's just like me. So I hire her and I put her, I promote her. And so it is, it is kind of this human nature. And so again, you have to stop yourself. And we've had to always think about ourselves and how we, how we are in the world as women, as people of color. Right? You, you always.
Because we were. Because there's a great book from like the 60s and it talked about how much women and at that time African American people had to understand their environment because of violence, right? Because either I was a slave and I have to understand what's going to happen and I have to read the Room or I'm a woman and I'm going to have some domestic violence against me. So you have to read it. So we're better at it. So we always have to become more, a little bit more in tune. If I'm in the power position. And even when you become like a CEO or you're it, people start catering to you and you don't ever really have to think about how you're perceived or how you're acting. And so when you're in the power position, you don't have to think about that anymore.
And so then you just keep hiring your buddies and your bros and behind closed doors and your bros because no one stops you. And the one person who does, you go, ugh, God, she's so emotional. She's so woke.
Erin: This is so, so familiar, this story. Yes, this story is very much the story of, yes. You know, many places I've worked, but especially the place I work most recently. And I feel sick about it. I do, I feel sick about it. And it makes me never want to be in corporate life again. And yet I was a direct deposit girly for many, many, many, many years. And it is very scary and very weird to not have an income you can depend on to have entrepreneurial like fire and spirit, but not know how to do a lot of things.
And even people are like, well, just consult. I'm like, well, what does just consult mean? Like, like, oh, go be a fractional chief creative officer.
Keri: What?
Erin: Like, I, I feel very mystified about this sort of non corporate life. And at the same time I feel like, I think I'm too like, I think I've cultivated like oppositional defiance disorder in my 50s that like is probably, I don't know, If I can conform in the way that I need to conform and kowtow and, you know, actually I probably could because it's so ingrained in me. And then I would hate myself for it. Like, what's your advice? Change managers? How do I manage this change?
Keri: Well, I wanted to say something about being a consultant, though, and being fractional. What's kind of cool is if you have your oppositional defiant disorder when you're a consultant, people are actually hiring you for your defiance a bit, and you get to go in and tell them, hey, this is the way I would. This is the way I would structure it. This is the way I think you're doing really well. This is the way you're not doing really well. So in a way, that boldness is now your superpower, because you need to go in and fix things and tell them. So I find that that's really helped me because now I get to be a little bit more authentic.
Erin: Yeah.
Keri: And not worry about the direct deposit and the person going, oh, Keri and Kelly are. Keep telling me I need to change. I don't.
Erin: The politics. Right.
Keri: Politics.
Erin: The stuff where I just suck. And I was very lucky to have bosses who would sort of like, make an umbrella over me and protect me from the politics. They're like, we need what you do so badly. Let us take the fire from above.
Keri: Yes.
Kelly: Yeah.
Erin: But then I didn't know what was going on half the time. Yeah.
Keri: You know, as a consultant, you can. As a consultant, sometimes you don't have to worry about that as much. So you can come in and do what you need to do. And so, like, honing your value and what your. What is again, your superpower that you can bring. But I don't know, Kell, what do you think about the.
Erin: Yeah.
Kelly: In terms of making the change? You know, it's like we said, you know, being brave. And then it's really kind of, you know, realizing what are the things that are maybe standing in your way from truly being successful? You know, is there a barrier to entry? Is there something that's. That's keeping you from truly taking that next step? And when. What is it? Then it's exploring the possibilities and really seeing for yourself, what if I had a magic wand or there was absolutely no constraint at all put on me for myself or anyone else? What would those possibilities be? And this is where you really let your mind wander. And you don't necessarily put a time limit on it because you. Maybe if I have the best ideas in the shower or when you're Taking a walk when you're away from a screen, when you're away from having to be somebody to someone else, and you can really just sit with yourself, that's when you sometimes have the greatest ideas. And then it's, what's that first action? But you have to want to make the change. You can't be kicking and screaming and saying, I don't want this.
I don't. I mean, there can be part of you that's afraid and all of that, because if you're not afraid, if it doesn't make you want to vomit, it probably isn't something worth trying to go for anyway.
Keri: Right.
Kelly: However, you do want to be in a place where you feel like I have it within me. I just need to figure out how I organize myself and keep myself on the straight and narrow. But the desire and wanting it for yourself is ultimately what's going to be key to your success.
Keri: And I think, too, Kelly, that when I think about how we started our business and we had a business plan because we've worked in corporate for a long time, so we're like, oh, this is how our revenue will be split. Guess what? In the first year, that's not how the revenue came in. We thought, oh, we're going to make a ton of money on these workshops and things like that. That did not happen. So the ability to pivot and to say, you know what? I'm still true to myself. I'm still core to what I'm doing, but, oh, okay, that gig actually fits really well. I never even thought about that.
Erin: Right.
Keri: And so that flexibility and being open is really important when you're starting your own business, because you kind of don't know sometimes where it could go or there could be a partnership that pops up that you think, oh, that really worked out, Kelly. And I thought there would be a great partnership. It didn't work out. We're like, okay, now we just move on to the next one.
Erin: Yeah.
Keri: So there's that flexibility that you really need as well.
Erin: All of that stuff sounds really familiar to me about in how I've been feeling out. Different partnerships, different relationships, different sources of revenue, different, like, what is my value that I can offer? What do I know how to do? What do I, you know, what do I want to do? How can I be something you don't already have? How can I be something that people need in the marketplace? And, you know, certainly there's a lot of white space in the. In the area for women over 40, because we're a quarter of the population, and yet we are treated like we don't exist. We also control all the spending, and. And yet we're not prioritized in that way. So I feel like there's so much white space.
Keri: Yes.
Erin: In the opportunities of creating businesses that serve us. This has been an amazing conversation, and I feel like I should pay you for therapy. I want to ask you, as we round out this conversation, what do you want our listeners to take away that will help lead to their personal success, their professional success in this next phase of their lives? Over 40.
Keri: Such a good question, Kelly. Do you have something first? Oh, look at her. I do, because now she'll make me cry. So now I got a really.
Erin: I love this part of your friendship. It's so beautiful.
Keri: I'm like, oh, damn. See this? Now I want to go first, but go ahead.
Erin: Crying already, Keri?
Keri: I know I'm gonna start crying because she's always crying.
Kelly: I don't know if you'll cry.
Keri: Okay, well, maybe I won't now, so make me not cry, Kelly. Go ahead.
Kelly: I think just suspend the disbelief and don't let fear be what drives you to do something or not do something, because you got to this point in life for a reason. You had a career. Maybe you lost the career, you were in a relationship, and now the relationship no longer serves you. But don't let the fear and don't let what ifs get in the way of you taking the first step and figuring out what you want that next version of yourself to look like. And you're not probably changing yourself to the point where we don't even know you anymore. But just trust yourself enough to know that you're going to make the right decision. And if it's not the right one, well, then you try something else. Like, there is no rulebook for how you live life.
There isn't. And if you put all that pressure on yourself to conform and fit someone else's expectations, you will be disappointed because you're not living an authentic life.
Keri: Yes. I mean, dare I say, do whatever the hell you want. That's maybe why that book title's so good. But I think in everything that Kelly said, when you look back, if you can let go of regret. I know sometimes people get so stuck in. Oh, well, like you said, Erin should have. Could have what an opportunity cost. Oh, I've already sunk all this in.
I might as well keep going. And if you can just. If I could help listeners just shed that. Just go. You know what? It got me here. I'm Here, and I'm going to move forward. The rest of it can go up in a little red balloon. Bye, bye.
Like, it's who you are. Let it go. Don't, like, keep looking back and picking at the scab and going, oh, I could, I should. Oh, why did I do this? Like, please stop. Move forward and just embrace where you're at. And like Kelly said, you're going to make a mistake. Who cares? It's an action, though. You did something, you tried something, and trust in yourself and really do the work, though, like, it's not just, okay, I'm going to go sell crystals.
Well, that might be a really shitty career. You might not make money. So you're going to have to figure out, okay, well, I want to do crystals, but, okay, I'm not going to make money and I need to have money. But where do you need to live? Maybe you live to live in Costa Rica versus Southern California. I mean, these are like, everything's a possibility, and then you have to start figuring out what's important to me and how do I narrow down those possibilities? I'm not living in Costa Rica, by the way, because there's too many bugs. I've been there. Too many bugs. I can't do it. I'd like to save some money, but no.
Erin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Thank you both so much. It's been a really great conversation. I appreciate your insight. I appreciate that you're doing this work. And we will put all the information about your book, your podcast, and how people can find you and the Abracci group in the show notes. Really great to know you. Thank you.
Keri: Thank you. Thank you for all the work you're doing and helping people, too. Thank you, Erin.
Erin: Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If you loved this conversation with Keri and Kelly, and it gave you some fresh inspiration for managing change in your own career, in your own life, please share this episode with a friend. That is how we grow personally as individuals and also how hotter than ever grows our audience. We want it to get bigger and bigger until women in midlife take over the world. And then delegate a lot of the work so that we don't get too worn out and forget to have fun.
Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Gerard and Podkit productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez.
I will talk to you next week, hotties. Take care of yourselves and the people you love. The only way out is through.
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