After The Rubble: Inventing Your Next Chapter with Producer Erica

Erin: Welcome to Hotter Than Ever, where we uncover the unconscious rules we've been following, we break those rules, and we find a new path to being freer, happier, sexier, and more self expressed. I'm your host, Erin Keating.

Today I talked to Erica Gerard, who produces this very podcast, and she has been my producer from day one. In this episode, we do kind of a switcheroo where she comes out from behind the scenes and interviews me about some of the deep thinking that I've been doing about the podcast and Hotter Than Ever in general and how that thinking has been evolving over this slow roll, but very thoughtful summer. All right, let's get hot.

This is a very special episode of Hotter than Ever, like an after school special, but not today. I have producer Erica here on the podcast, so we're 90 episodes in, and Erica has never made her voice known to the higher than ever audience, and yet she has been here. Like, I want to say shadow puppet government, but that's not what it is.

Erica: I was thinking, like a cozy blanket.

Erin: No, you're better than a cozy blanket, you're like power and structure and guidance and insight and expertise.

Erica: Like, you're like a woman to be like, I'm just a little cozy. Curl up with me, I'm soft.

Erin: Oh my God, Erica. So Erica is here today, and I am so, so thrilled for this conversation and this unconventional episode of Hotter Than Ever. And here's a reason to do unconventional episodes of Hotter Than Ever. We are making this up as we go along. There is no formula, as much as I would love there to be. There is no formula for the podcast, there is no formula for our lives, we are all figuring it out together.

So welcome, Erica.

Erica: Thank you, Erin. It's nice to be talking with you publicly.

Erin: She's come out, I've let her out of the attic. Keeping her in the attic, he's been behind the scenes since months before the podcast started.

Erica: That's right. She's really been subsisting on baked beans and a little bit of ham.

Erin: Yeah, occasionally we'll bring her a treat. So today I want to talk about my current thinking about the podcast and the state of the issues that we talk about in the podcast. I want to give you a personal update, just sort of let you in on what's been going on behind the scenes here in the Hotter Than Ever-verse. Is that a thing?

Erica: Ooh, yes. I love it.

Erin: Everything's a verse to me.

Erica: Should we turn the tables? Should I play you and just ask you some pointed questions that I already know the answers to?

Erin: Oh, my God, yes. Exactly. That sounds great. Is that what I do? I think it is. Okay, kind of, you do it.

Erica: Not really, but okay. So, yes, we are here to give you a Hotter Than Ever update from the Hotter-verse. What did you say?

Erin: The Hotter Than Ever-verse.

Erica: The Hotter Than Ever-verse.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: And this is for a couple reasons, this update. One is based on feedback that we've gotten from you, from our peeps, our hotties about the show. Another is that Erin has been growing.

Erin: Evolving, been on a journey.

Erica: She's been on a journey. She's been conversing with all kinds of real and unreal people, the spirits.

Erin: The spirits.

Erica: Yes, but for real has had some really great thoughts about the work that we've been doing here on the show, things that we've been talking about. If there's almost like a theme or a culmination of the show's message and how Erin has kind of gotten a bit more specific about what she would like that to look like going forward, it's still going to be the same show. Still going to be about all our midlife, you know, foibles and tribulations.

Erin: Opportunities.

Erica: Yeah, exactly. But maybe with a hint more specificity.

Erin: I had an acting teacher when I was in high school who said acting is all about specificity. The more specific you can be in your character and your emotional journey or whatever as an actor. I just, Specificity has really stayed with me.

Erica: What an edgy teacher, really.

Erin: It was like a college program when I was in high school. So, you know, we were really getting, we were living on the edge and in the dorms.

Erica: Sounds like it. So without further ado, adieu Erin, why don't you share with us what's been on your mind lately? What are you thinking about?

Erin: Erica, thank you for that beautiful tee up, I'm not used to being teed up. You know, for the last two years, this podcast has been a place for me to go on a personal journey and for me to bring the audience along on a journey that I think is common to a lot of us in this moment in our lives, right where we were doing everything right. We were following all the rules, we were trying to have it all like our moms told us we could, like the culture told us we could. And then we hit a wall where we were like, yeah, I'm trying to have it all. And for some reason it's not working and I'm unhappy and I'm going to need to make some changes. And that's really where I started this podcast was at that moment of like I had just, just started to make this sweeping change in my life. Starting with getting separated and then getting divorced, losing my job in the media business, getting laid off from the fanciest, best paying, high, most high status job I've ever had.

That really formed the basis of my personality. When people say like, this hat is my whole personality, really, it was like, this job is my whole personality. But you know, underneath it, you know that it's not. And for me, all that like, career obsession, work obsession, workaholism, like whatever, the having it all ness was masking a lot of real, real misery and unhappiness. And over the past two years, I have talked to people on this podcast who have provided me with so many insights about how to do this next chapter of life and have provided you with so many insights on how to do this next chapter of life. And I have heard from you that you feel like I am seeing you and that hotter than never is seeing you in a way that other conversations that are out there in the cultural sphere are not acknowledging. And I'm so grateful for that and that is the work I want to do.

I want to do the work that is sort of giving examples of what to fucking do next, because so many of us were these sort of wild, exploratory, creative creatures in our 20s. We started the careers we wanted to start, we thought we were going to change the world and we certainly did in a lot of ways and are in a lot of ways. I mean, I didn't want like a job with a capital J, you know, until I was like 28, 20. Like, I really didn't see the need to do anything conventional. I was trying to make enough money to live and do my creative work and live this kind of bohemian life.

And then all of a sudden I realized I wanted to be a grownup. I wanted the grown up things. I wanted a career with a capital C. I wanted a family with a capital F. I'm in my, in my early days of thinking about this stuff. I'm calling this like a capital letter life. Like, that's what I wanted, I wanted a capital letter life and I wanted to make it all work.

I wanted to get the cash and prizes and have love and have kids and have an awesome career and be happy. I was, I wanted to have everything and so, like a lot of people, I set off to sort of smooth the edges of my edginess after I was in my 20s and I found a career in television. And it was a very satisfying, exciting, creative career. Part of these big institutions, part of these corporations, you know, getting to work with incredible artists, but sort of finding myself further and further behind the scenes. When in my 20s, I really wanted to be out front. I was, you know, was writing and performing and really wanted to have a voice and contribute to the culture and the cultural conversation and in order to make money honestly and to have a career in a capital letter. Life, like, I think it's death by a thousand cuts, right? Like, you accept a compromise, and then you accept another compromise, and then you accept another compromise, and it's not terrible individually and they're not terrible in aggregate, but layer on top of that, domestic responsibilities that are disproportional for women. Layer on top of that for me, a marriage that, you know, just. It wasn't the partnership that I wanted it to be. It was not a happy experience enough of the time to get worth what it was.

Although I got these beautiful kids and I got twins and like, holy, how am I doing it all? And okay, I'll juggle this and I'll do that, and I'll do that, and, you know, come to summer of 2021 in Los Angeles with all those years of compromise and kind of getting beat up and getting back up and marriage problems and career changes and all the normal life things. And what happened to me is what happens to a lot of women who are clenching to keep it together or living with an enormous amount of stress or feeling like if they step out of line at all, the whole fucking house of cards comes down. That amount of pressure, that amount of responsibility and stress.

And like, if you have a great partner, if you have a great living situation, if you have some variables that were different than what I'm talking about, I think it's possible to not experience that crisis or to experience it in such a way that you can make incremental changes to your life and improve it. But for a lot of us, especially those of us who decide they want to get divorced, like, the next step is either get divorced or get sick. And what happened to me is I got sick. Does that resonate, Erica?

Erica: Yeah. I mean, both of them are kind of a death in a way, like a slow death.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: You know, you've got the death of the marriage, and then let's say you stay in it. You are slowly dying inside. And that manifests in a lot of ways. Maybe you do get physically ill, maybe you get mentally ill.

Erin: Maybe you're numb.

Erica: You're checked out.

Erin: You're numb. I was numb for years. I was numb because I just couldn't afford to honestly look at it, because if I honestly looked at it, I was gonna have to dismantle it.

Erica: Yeah and so you just go into this kind of zombie mode where you're just sleepwalking through your life, just doing the things that you need to do to get through it.

Erin: Right. And you get one life, why are we pushing through every day? Oh, I'll just get to this milestone. Oh, I'll just get to this, I'll get to that. Oh, when the kids get to middle school. Oh, when we get to go on vacation. Oh, when I get my bonus.

Like, all of these future deferred happinesses. Right? These, like, milestones of relief, but that's part of the work that Eve Rodsky is doing, you know, where she wrote the book Fair Play. I had her on the podcast and honestly, like, out of all the interviews I've done, her work has been the one that has sat on my heart the most heavily. And I could cry about this, but, like, domestic labor is so much bullshit for women. And the fact that we come home from these intense jobs, which we have to have, there's no, like, single income family anymore.

Because it's systemic. It's not you. It's systemic. The way the things are set up in society is to allow us to absorb all this labor because women are fucking badass. And we get it all done, right? So Eve's work talks about how to make the domestic load more fair and, boy, you have to have a certain kind of partner who's even willing to play that game with you. I did not have that relationship. What happened for me, in terms of the household responsibilities and everything you have to do for your kids and just keeping everything running was I just did everything because my partner, you know, pretended to be incapable. And what that means is you get home from your job and you have another job, and it's all full time, and it's never not full time.

Erica: Whether and maybe he was incapable, I suspect that that is not the case for everyone. It's either unwilling or unable or dissembling.

Erin: Like, pretending to be unable. But I think that's pretending. Not. Maybe not even consciously, but, like, you know what? You're so much better at these things, you know, just tell me what you need me to do. The, like, I'm going to babysit my own children phenomenon. They'll like, well, I'll babysit. It's like, you're fucking babysitting.

You're also the parent. The parent, you know, what can I do, honey? All the same things need to be done all the time. So why don't you just pick a couple of those things and never ask me about it again? Anyway, you can see I'm getting fucking angry.

Erica: Yeah, I can see.

Erin: This is what happens when I think about Eve's work and the next step in her work is to talk about how when you don't address this stuff, it manifests as illness. And I hate talking about health. I hate wellness stuff. I'll never tell you what to eat. I'll never interview a nutritionist or someone who's going to get your. I don't even know what the letters are. Like, who's going to get your whatever BMI.

Erica: I'm not even going to a 1C.

Erin: I don't know what that is. It sounds like a Visa.

Erica: It's from the commercials.

Erin: Yeah. I mean, diabetics, right? Exactly, exactly. It's all the commercials. So I'm not. I don't like wellness. I don't like the industry of it and actually doesn't speak to me. What it says to me is, you're doing it wrong and you're broken, and here's how we fix you and that is not what Hotter Than Ever is about.

Erica: We're not talking about doing an autopsy here about everything that went wrong.

Erin: No.

Erica: In the marriage, in your body, in your career and your. Yes, of course that's all part of us. But I think what I've been hearing from you is you're interested in moving forward and finding new possibilities a hundred percent model of life can look like. And totally what we, what you and I have talked about is that there's just not enough models out there for how to do it, for how to, you know, live as a midlife single lady. Partnered, unpartnered kids, no kids, but not wanting to maintain the status quo, what was happening before, because it's not working.

Erin: Right.

Erica: But not knowing what we're stepping into exactly.

Erin: Right, because we can't know. Because our generation, and I love this peer group. I am so blown away by the women who have come into my life as a result of this podcast, including you, Erica. Like, we are an unprecedented generation. Right? Like we are more educated, we are more financially Independent. And we are about to inherit all the boomers wealth. But this phrase, the feminization of wealth has, has come on my radar and here for it, you know, because when.

Erica: God willing, I mean, no, it will happen.

Erin: It will, it will happen. They, they will eventually die and step down from their seats in, in the Senate. Like at some point they're going to.

Erica: Take it with them to the grave.

Erin: I know they're trying to take democracy to the grave, but it's not, we're not going to. Kamala's not going to let it happen. Anyway, that's not a political podcast, but I do have points of view, many points of view. So, yes, I mean, we are this incredible generation. We have never been more successful. We have never been more successful in these corporate environments where they like let us in the door and then we just climb, climb, climb, climb, climb to the place where we're in charge of everything. We're responsible for everything.

But we own nothing. We don't sit on the boards in any kind of rational proportion, we don't own things, we don't run hedge funds, we're not venture capitalists. The venture capital capitalists won't give us money, like, we learned that from Cindy Gallup that 1.7% of women owned and run companies that are looking to get funding in Silicon Valley. 1.7% of women's companies get funded. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, I don't do anything with a 1.7% chance of success and yet women.

Erica: Are the one who make all of the purchasing decisions for the household.

Erin: Oh, absolutely and when learned, right? And when women are on boards, companies do better and all of these things. But the, the systemic forces that are at play are the patriarchy holding on, because the minute we get control of things, we're, we're going to do it better. I'm sorry, I love men, boy, do I love men. But the way that things have been working is that they haven't been working. And for us, as, as women of a certain age, which is a disgusting phrase I'll never say again, of women over 40, you know, we were raised to believe that we could have everything, that we could do anything, that, and really we can do everything, we can do the labor of everything.

And then we hit a wall, you know, and I think it's happening across our cohort where we're hitting a wall and we're going, I don't have the moment to moment demands of parenting that I had when my kids were under 10 or whatever. And we wake up and go, oh, who am I? Who am I? What am I? What am I doing with this one and only life? And so either you can figure out how to stay on the path and keeping up with the Joneses and all the things and that's working adequately enough for you, or you're going to blow it up and then you'll be sitting in the rubble going, oh, no, I feel some relief. But this is, whoa, and that is really where I have been for. I really was there when I started the podcast and probably for, you know, the first six to eight months of doing the podcast of, like, I need any insight that is going to help me get through this feeling of like, oh, fuck, I just blew it all up and I don't know what to do now.

Erica: And someone tell me it's going to be okay.

Erin: Someone tell me it's going to be okay.

Erica: Someone tell me that I did the right thing. Someone, somebody tell me what to do next. And oh, that sounds good. I'm going to do that. Oh, that sounds good. I'm going to do that.

Erin: Right? And that insight helps inform where I'm at at this moment. And oh, my story fits into a bigger cultural context. You know, when Paulette Rigo, who came on to talk about mediation instead of divorce lawyers, she said 73% of divorces are initiated by women. I thought, oh, yeah, this is, this is a larger systemic cultural issue, this is a big picture who we are in the world and the space that we occupy in the, in the culture. And we are part of a massive sea change. But the problem is we've been on this escalator, right, for years and years where we're like, okay, I'm going to get the, you know, for me, like, okay, I'm gonna stop freelancing in my 20s, I'm gonna get a proper job and then I'm gonna look for a guy who I can start a life with because I want to have kids. And then I'm gonna, we're gonna build our careers together and we're gonna have, we're gonna raise our, and I'm gonna get. And we're saving a 401k and we're gonna buy a house and we're like all of this escalator stuff, but once your kids are more self sufficient or if you didn't have kids, once you reach a certain place in various goals, you turn around and you go, oh, I'm at the top of the escalator. And then you look around and I just have this image. It's almost like a talking heads video from the 90s where you're at the top of the escalator and you look around and it's just fields, just wide open fields.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: Of like, nothing and you could go in any direction and you could take any path. And it's also that Robert Frost poem, "The Road Less Traveled" where ultimately you think it's like, oh, whatever choice I make is so important, but in reality, they all kind of lead.

Erica: Lead the same place.

Erin: Yeah, so you've got to head off in some direction and that's the next phase. Once you're out of the rubble, you can set your sights on the next thing. And because there's no precedent, no generation has been as educated, has as much experience building things, making things, growing things.

Erica: Has as much nurturing things.

Erin: Nurturing, right. Has as much professional experience. We're all going, oh, fuck, what do I do? How do I reinvent my professional life? How do I reinvent my personal life? How do I maybe want to do parenting differently? Maybe I want to live in a tiny house community with my girlfriends. Like, I don't fucking know. Let's start a commune or let's start a business. Like, I always, you know, I always loved X, Y, Z. What if I tried to do more of that?

I'm tired of working for someone else's profits, like, what if I try to do something on my own? Like, all of these thoughts are so legitimate and so wide open. There's no surprise to me why the New York Times and the New Yorker and New York, the New York press basically is obsessed with polyamory. It's because they all did, all of the editors at those publications did this journey. They did this journey of the capital, a adult life, and the women who run publishing. I mean, the reason there are books about this stuff is because women our age run the fucking publishing business. These are the books they need to read.

Erica: Right, well, polyamory is a very concrete, specific way of testing the boundaries and, you know, breaking the mold and doing something completely out of left field that you haven't done before. And there seems to be a model for it, like, we can get a book on how to have the conversation very hard. It's very prescriptive, and it seems very, very hard. And you know what the truth is, is that it typically ends in divorce anyway.

Erin: But that's what we're all trying to avoid. I think there's a cohort of people who are trying to avoid upsetting the apple cart of the capital "A" life. Capital "A" adulting life and so you're reading about this memory.

Erica: Is a step, stepping stone or a symptom. Or a symptom or it's hot.

Erin: I don't know.

Erica: But like, yeah, maybe some sort, but very few, I think.

Erin: Yeah, I see it as a symptom of a cultural moment where women are going, what am I getting out of this? In terms of their committed long term relationships. And I love this person, but maybe I need something more different. Oh, I didn't expect. We're living so long now. I mean, I'm going to be 53 in a couple weeks, my mom is 80 and thriving, my aunt just passed away at age 93. Like I look at if, if I have 40 more years.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: What with no roadmap, with no precedent, we have to be the examples of what is possible. And so all of this sort of larger sociocultural stuff is really what I'm lit up about these days. I'm lit up by the systemic conversations, the conversations about like, oh shit, we are part of kind of a moment in time. And I love the idea that after the rubble and after reaching the top of the escalator with this wide open field of possibilities for reinvention and finding our own happiness and what lights us up as individuals and obviously there's the material realities of life. You have to work, you have to pay for shit, you have to figure out how to make a living. And again, systemically, real hard to do that these days. Real hard to do that. Technology has, has really busted every model and so many people that I have talked to are really struggling to figure out, wow, I've never lived this marginally, I've never lived this much on the edge.

I've never had less of a safety net, I've never had less security, I've never had to worry about health insurance in the way I have to worry about it now for me and my kids. Like all of these bigger things are at play and guess who's going to figure it all out? It's going to be us.

Erica: Right, well, but you know, when you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right. Safety is the one that's gotta get resolved first before we can self actualize and figure out those things. We have to feel safe and I think we get stuck in that need for safety, need for stability, and we never get the opportunity to just play, to just, you know. Did you ever read those books, the choose your own adventure books?

Erin: Oh, my God, story of my life. Yes, I fucking love them and then you'd go back and try all the different options.

Erica: Yes, you'd go back and try all the other. I loved the idea of like, and you can choose this one or this one or this one, or you can just make one up yourself. And there was no pressure. It wasn't like, oh, I have to get this right, I have to choose the right one. No, you know, you just picked one that sounded good and you followed through and then maybe got to the other side and you were like, all right, maybe that wasn't like, perfect for me, but maybe I'll try.

But I got something out of it, but maybe I'll try something else. And then somewhere along the way, we just lose that freedom of choice because we resign ourselves to what we got spit out in like, what end we got spit out to. And now we're here and it's fine, I guess, and everything's fine. There's nothing wrong and I should be grateful, I should be so--

Erin: Oh, you should be gratitude, journaling every day.

Erica: Yes.

Erin: Because that's gonna, that is not going to solve it, guys. No, ladies, this is.

Erica: What if--

Erin: This is not an individual's problem? This is a larger cultural problem, it's not you, it's systemic.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. So what if we--that metaphor you use, we get to the top of the escalator, there's a big field, and now we have to choose our own adventure.

Erin: That's right, that's what I want.

Erica: That's scary, right?

Erin: And that's what I want Hotter Than Ever to be. I want, first of all, I want everyone to know how optimistic I feel about us. I think there is so much, much potential.

Erica: You didn't mean you and me.

Erin: Oh, you and me for sure. Ride or die. But also about us as a generation, as a group of women over 40, trying to figure out what happens next. Like, I really believe in us. And because we were scrappy and figured it out in our 20s, we figured out how to be happy and self expressed a lot of us in our 20s, and we had this idealism. We just have to figure out how to get her back. And the person who I've been in my life that I relate the most to at this moment is me at 27.

Erica: Like, who is Erin at 27?

Erin: I mean, I was living in New York City by myself. I had my first apartment solo. I was acting and doing improv. I was working as little as I could for money, so that I would, like, sustain my life. But I always felt like if I was working three days and I had four days off, that I was winning.

Because what I was doing in those four days was making shows and producing things downtown and, you know, trying to figure out my artistic voice and not now. Look, I would have had to live a very marginal life if I had chosen that path forever. But I feel like she had very anti authoritarian notions, she was anti corporate, she dressed real funky, she was real cute, she slept with whoever she wanted to, like, she had fun. There was a lot of parties and karaoke and, you know, and laughs and a feeling of like, oh, well, you want to go to Thailand? Like, let's go to Thailand in a month, let's make a make, make a plan, let's buy some plane tickets. Like, I felt like the world, I could do anything I wanted. I was free and independent and I really relate to her. I want her joie de vivre without the insecurity that I had then. And I think that that is what we have now.

Erica: Yes, because we're more mature now. So we, we've lived more, we've have more experience and we know that we're gonna be okay no matter what.

Erin: More evidence of our ability to be successful. We have all of the, we, we check all of the boxes on that job description on LinkedIn that we look at instead of being like, oh, there's 10 that I, that I am, but there's like seven that I'm not, so I'm not going to apply at this point. We check all the boxes and then we go, yeah, I don't even think I really want that job.

Erica: Right.

Erin: Like, we're qualified for it. We now match the credibility that we require from ourselves in order to take risks in our lives. Like, let's look at the evidence of what we've accomplished so far and use that as a thing that gives us confidence that we are going to figure this out and we are going to figure this out together. We do not have to be alone in this conversation. That's not going to work, actually, culturally, financially, like, we are going to have to work together.

Erica: And it's exciting because this Gen X audience that we're talking about here, so generally 40 over 40, we are considered to be all of those things that you just referred to about yourself. That is kind of who we are. We're kind of anti authority. We're, we're cute, we're edgy, we're diy. We're the latchkey Kids, we had to figure it out ourselves. We were watching Pretty in Pink and all those movies that say anything. Oh, my gosh. Lloyd Dobler taught us that we are strong and powerful just for who we are. All the Molly Ringwald, like, I'm a redhead. She's a redhead. I was like, oh, redheads are actually pretty.

Erin: It took Molly Ringwald to figure that out.

Erica: Yes. Molly Ringwald to figure that out. So all of us, what I mean to say is that we all have that drive within us and that joie de vivre that you're referring to with the sensibility and pragmatism that we've developed through our career.

Erin: Said that beautifully. Can you say that again?

Erica: Thank you. Oh, God. I can try just that, you know, we have all of that joie de vivre from our youth paired with the sensibility and pragmatism that we've developed through our careers in our lives.

Erin: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just, there's so much reason to bet on us and to believe in us and, you know, and there's all the reasons why society at large wants us to be invisible, you know, because if they tell us we're invisible, then we get all internal. It's like the same thing as, like, you tell us to focus on anti aging, right? To, like, we'll make sure you still look hot and make sure you still this and make sure your body conforms to xyz. And, like, how much of our lives have we wasted looking inward and saying, oh, not good enough, not good enough.

You know, because those are the pressures that we get. What if we choose what we want to take on in those arenas and fucking move on? Like, for me, like, you know, I'm going through a physical transformation, too. I'm, first of all, I've never been this blonde, what the fuck? I'm so blonde. I love it.

Erica: You are pretty blonde, but it suits you.

Erin: I like it. Look, I like it. I'm also, you know, losing weight. I've lost 18 pounds on this weight loss drugs that I was so judgmental about and actually turns out to be such a gift. How it's going to be for as a forever part of my life, you know, we'll see about that. I think part of me is like, that's a marketing premise.

Erica: Nobody knows.

Erin: Nobody knows anything, but the ability to lose weight without suffering has been a revelation for me because I spent a lot of years suffering to lose weight and then losing weight and then gaining weight and then gaining more weight. And so, and this may be that again, but at this moment I'm feeling physically better than I've ever felt. I'm feeling my vitality is strong. I'm feeling hopeful and optimistic and hot, like, you know, dating a bunch of people and getting a lot of attention from men. And that's what I need without being emotionally responsible for them. It's so nice.

Erica: Another model for how to do this thing. If it's a model that you start dating, if you.

Erin: If that's what you want. It's not, if you're like, Erin, Jesus, like, I get that too, you know, it's not.

Erica: Yeah.

Erin: Your choices will not be for everyone, my choices are not for everyone. But what I want to bring is a sense of fun and joy and context to this conversation about what it's like to be over 40 in the year 2024 and to be a woman who has followed the rules and then the system has not rewarded it in the way that we were taught to expect. Because tech broke everything. So every consistent thing that we were raised to think, think from our parents generation, which, you know, who knew that our parents grew up in the most unprecedented period of prosperity. And this sense that there is a social good to all boats rising when, you know, everyone has more security provided by the government in the form of FDIC, protections for bank accounts and in the form of Medicaid and in the form of Social Security and all these things. The GI Bill that helped white men of any class raise us, raise a family on a single income like that, we grew up thinking that that 30 year period from the late 40s to the late 70s was the norm and that was what we could expect.

But the fact is we can't fucking expect that because the political policies and economic policies that came after that dismantled every piece of that and took the safety net out from under us just at the moment when we would be.

Erica: It was supposed to become available.

Erin: Just at the moment when we believed we could have anything we wanted.

Erica: Yeah, yeah. It's so disappointing. It's so disappointing.

Erin: It's so disappointing and it's like, oh, great, thanks so much. But to me, I'm not surprised that like our generation is who we are because we can do, we can do this, we can be enterprising, we can be scrappy and also we can say fuck the rules. Yes, fuck the rules. Because what the rules are supposed to get you is no longer available.

Erica: Yeah, it's all made up anyway.

Erin: Right.

Erica: You know we know that now. And we are just getting creative with working around it to get our needs met and not putting up with shit anymore that makes us have to be anyone other than who we are.

Erin: That's right, hat's right. And so what I'm thinking in terms of a slight reframe for Hotter Than Ever is I'm not a therapist, I am not trained. I also look down the path of, you know, you hear me talk with scorn about this notion of being a thought leader, you know, there is a path, a good girl path, where I develop a self help workshop and we all. There's coaching. I'm saying this with scorn.

I don't mean it with scorn because I participate happily in these things. There is a path where I go and speak at conferences and I write a book and I become like a person who's like, in this healing wellness space of like, let's all get better and feel better. All those things are therapy and psychology and life coaching and conversations about menopause. Like, that is all great stuff. But I think it needs to shift out of the center of what I've been doing at Hotter Than Ever because really, what I want to provide for you as listeners is options. I want you to know what your options are at this point in your life. I want you to know you don't have to do it how you've been doing it, and that there are lots of models for people who have invented the next stage of their lives, whether that's in relationships and love, whether that's in their financial lives and how they live and how they spend.

Do you remember that conversation about buying nothing? Yeah, buying nothing for a year, like, that's interesting to me. Like, how are we going to do this in a way that's particular to us as individuals and that can actually give us the satisfaction and joy and fulfillment that we're looking for at this phase in our lives. I'm not going to not talk about menopause, I'm not going to not talk about whatever. But my feeling is like, I'd like to narrow the focus a little bit so that it's about people who have created an option for us to live into a career reinvention, a personal life reinvention. I just think we need to have examples of what's possible out there in that giant field at the top of the escalator.

Erica: Like, yeah, because you can't know what you don't know and.

Erin: Right.

Erica: You don't know. Like last night, can I tell you what I did last night. I went to an outdoor concert in the neighborhood.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: In some lady's backyard.

Erin: Awesome.

Erica: And she has, like, land and, like, the whole neighborhood just kind of wandered into her yard. And she's an artist, and she left all of the, you know, house and the Airbnb that she has open so you could just walk through and look at her art. She featured other artists. I mean, she was so cool. Just anyone could just walk in her house and look around and buy some art if you want, and then go sit on the lawn and listen to some music and every. I mean, it was packed because people want to be together and they want to see their neighbors. And my friend and I were walking home, and we're like, the younger generations would never do that. Like, that is a spirit. Spirit of generosity that I haven't experienced from anyone younger than us and that is something so beautiful and precious that our generation and even some baby boomers, the hippies, and I don't want that to die. That is, like, a really beautiful model.

Erin: Well, and we need community. We really, really need community. We need places to go where people get us, where we get them, where we feel like just like, just be with people, you know? I had my first party at my house this summer that I have ever had, and my kids have parties all the time. They have friends over all the time, but they were away at camp. And I had a party just to have a party, and it was so. It was like healing my relationship with Los Angeles. I don't have a fucked up relationship with Los Angeles, but I do sometimes feel really isolated here, and it's a common complaint. And so many people from different areas of my life, young people and older people, like, artists and people I know through my professional. I mean, it was so gorgeous, and it was, I was so moved and full the whole time that I felt like, oh, this is what community feels like. Now I'm really clueless, like, I am my mother's only child. Like, I am pathologically independent. I need to be reminded.

Erica: Pathologically independent.

Erin: No, I am. It's a, like, reaction to having no control over my life as a child. And so I just am like, I'll do it. Yeah, I can handle it, I'll do it by myself.

Erica: I'll plan it. Yeah, I'll buy the, I'll buy the drink.

Erin: I've got this, but I let people help me. And I wouldn't stress about, like, will so and so get along with so and so. It was just like, I love you, you should come, like, let's hang out. And I didn't have the stress of also parenting at the same time and I was like, oh, this is a possibility for my life.

Erin: Like, I can be more actively in community.

Erica: Yes.

Erin: And that felt like what you're talking about with your neighbor's house. It's like, if she did that regularly, you would develop a culture around that, you know, and maybe you would do it at your place, so.

Erica: And maybe I wouldn't be so lonely if I could just get over my fear of having a stranger in my house.

Erin: Like, that's right.

Erica: You know, and we're not, we're not talking about some, like, creepy man that is gonna come murder me with an axe.

Erin: Can you imagine if it was, like, a dude doing this setup? It would just feel very different.

Erica: Yeah, no, no, it's.

Erin: Maybe it would be nice.

Erica: Like a spirit of openness and sharing.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: And just, you know, welcoming, welcoming people into your space, Welcoming people into your life. Not having so many, you know, invisible boundaries that keep us separate from each other.

Erin: Totally and I also think the constraints and the level of responsibility that we have, especially if we still have kids at home or at the beginning of parenting, because that's possible, too. In your 40s, like, yeah. There is this sense of, like, I don't have to do this by myself. Where are my friends? Where are my girlfriends? Like, when I got out of my marriage, I looked around and I was like, oh, the things that are missing for me are, like, my interests and my personal social life, not the who we hang out with because the kids are friends with their kids, like, not the default people, the co-workers or whatever, but the, like, your people. I want us to be looking actively for those people because those are the people you're going to have fun with, you know?

Erica: Yeah and who knows? This community could really be that for each other.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: If there's a desire and if there's an interest. I mean, there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast, and if you're interested in being in community with us, not because we're trying to monetize it or although we will be capitalize on it, but just. Just to be together and in solidarity.

Erin: Yeah, please, like, participate in the substack, you know, participate on social media with us. Okay. Can I talk a little bit about, like, Hotter Than Ever as a macro thing? Because I'm also up to some entrepreneurship that I want to share.

Erica: Yes, let's talk about that as we,

Erin: As we start to wrap up.

Erica: Yes, as we start to wrap.

Erin: Thank you for keeping me on time and on task, Erica. You know what's up with Hotter Than Ever as a brand is that I have the beginnings of a book, so I am working with a partner on that. I created this show with my friend Amber J. Lawson called Swipe Club. We did it once here in Los Angeles. It's about dating online and over 40. It was really fun, it was really, really fun.

And I can't wait for more people to see it, so we're trying to figure out what to do next with that. It was like part comedy show, part empowerment seminar, part, like, workshop people. The audience, you ladies who showed up for that wanted to talk about your experiences dating online. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was great, like, everybody really was willing to show up with their own stories and experiences, and that was gorgeous. I am working on a partnership where we will film episodes of this podcast, so we'll be able to get sort of a more visual take and a little bit of a wider reach on YouTube.

I'm working on a standup show which is going to be all, all women comics over 40. We're going to prototype and we're just going to baby steps, turn it into a giant national tour coming to a town near you probably in 2025. So, you know, there's a lot of planning and there's a lot of brick by brick, step by step work. I am working really hard not to be a solo, not to do everything all by myself. You know, this is part of the lessons that I want. I want to do this better than I did in my 20s. I don't want that pathological self reliance. I want partners who are psyched and who will carry the load with me and who will help grow hotter than ever and all of our different fun, insightful experiences and media.

I'm also going to try to push myself out there a little bit more on social media and just be willing to be more opinionated. I just look so diplomatic and raised to be like, well, this is this, and this is also this, you know, but I think the fact is that I do have a strong point of view and I have to stop being the child of divorce that I am trying to please everybody and say a little bit more of what I really think and participate in the cultural conversation a little bit bit more because I just don't hear a lot of people who are out there talking about this phase of life in a way that's not just about problem solving.

Erica: Right, it isn't just dumps in the dumpy dumps.

Erin: Right, or just like, oh, my God, I'm suffering, suffering. Here's what I need to eat or journal or, you know, meditate about. Stop it. Make like that is. That is a band aid. And yes, you need to take care of yourself, and you need to work on your mindfulness and your wellness, but your mindfulness and your wellness are not going to change the systemic. And so, like, getting really clear about your dreams for this stage and then listening and hearing other people who have actually made these changes or various kinds of changes from incremental to enormous, like, that is really what I want to provide here. Against the backdrop of, like, this is what's happening culturally, we have a viable woman candidate for president who is us. She is fucking us. She know she is an overachiever who has done everything right and somehow allowed herself to be, like, put on the sidelines for three years. I just keep thinking she's been at the gym. She's just been at the gym working out.

Erica: It's just probably. Yeah, she's working out. Ready her plan to take over, thankfully. Yeah, she's played it smart. She's so smart.

Erin: Yeah.

Erica: And so she's exactly what we need.

Erin: I agree. And she's, you know, like, all of us been underestimated. Don't underestimate us. You don't underestimate yourself. Like, you've done well under the shaking, quaking ground of the last 30 years. Like, in the economy that we've been in, with constant recessions, in the cultural shit that's been happening. And you managed to build an adult life. Like, you got this, too, you know, just because you're older doesn't mean there isn't another 30, 40, 50 years of life for you. You know, let's work on it together and try to figure out how to make it fun.

Erica: Yeah, let's make it fun together.

Erin: This would be my new catchphrase. Let's make it fun together. That's the least fun bumper sticker I've ever heard of. Take responsibility for your fun.

Erica: All right, my dear.

Erin: Thank you, Erica.

Erica: Well, this has been a joy. I love having these conversations with you.

Erin: I love you and your support and your guidance and your calm and reasonable counsel when I'm, like, on an emotional rollercoaster about existential everything. I'm grateful for you.

Erica: Thank you, my friend. All right, so tune in next week and we will have more hotter than ever from the Hotter Than Ever verse for you and reach out to us on Instagram substack. Let us know what you think of this conversation, how it resonated with you. If it brought anything up, brought anything to the surface, we'd love to hear from you.

Erin: All right, love you all.

Erica: Bye bye.

Erin: Thanks for listening to Hotter Than Ever. If you loved this conversation with me and Erica Gerard, please find us on substack@hotterthanever.substack.com or @hotterthaneverpod on Instagram. Comment on our posts, drop us a note I want to hear from you. I want to hear what you think about where we've been and where we're headed and how Hotter Than Ever can be more valuable to you than it is even at this very moment.

Hotter Than Ever is produced by Erica Gerard, whose voice you have now heard and who you have started to get to know, and her company, Podkit Productions. Our associate producer is Melody Carey. Music is by Chris Keating with vocals by Issa Fernandez.

Dive into these last weeks of summer with gusto, ladies. It will be Labor Day and we'll be back in the swing of fall and work and all that stuff and maybe sweaters and leather and cute outfits. Fall's always a good fashion season anyway, we'll be there before we know it so go and get into a body of water or find a way to make the most of the sunshine.